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| < Europe (rec.travel.europe) ~ Worst European attractions |
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 Posted:
Sat Aug 19, 2006 9:08 pm
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On 19 Aug 2006 09:01:30 -0700, jeremyrh.geo@yahoo.com wrote:
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Mxsmanic wrote:
Martin writes:
Yeah right. Where are descriptive adjectives positioned in French.
Basic word order is SVO in both languages:
I see the car = Je vois la voiture.
The sun is shining = Le soleil brille.
I've dialed the number = J'ai composé le numéro.
I've dialed it = J'ai compose' le ?
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and
I gave it to her = ...
I gave her one = ...
Quiet at the back, Morrow minor.
--
Martin |
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| Posted:
Sat Aug 19, 2006 11:34 pm
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On Sat, 19 Aug 2006 07:41:14 +0200, Mxsmanic <mxsmanic@gmail.com>
wrote:
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Hatunen writes:
I would be interested in several examples of grammar English
inherited from French.
You've just provided one. It also includes several examples of
vocabulary inherited from French.
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Now which parts of my sentence are you considered grammar
inherited from the French?
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Prior to the Middle English that arose after the Norman Conquest, Old
English was a Germanic language that is unrecognizable today. Try
reading _Beowulf_ for an example of what it used to look like.
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Old French isn't all that readable to modern French people. In
any case, you have, typically, evaded answering my question.
Are you ignoring the possibility that the English were quite
capable of evolving their own grammar, in the same manner that
most other language speakers have?
************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) *************
* Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow *
* My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps * |
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| Posted:
Sat Aug 19, 2006 11:36 pm
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On Fri, 18 Aug 2006 23:58:49 +0100, Padraig Breathnach
<padraigb@MUNGEDiol.ie> wrote:
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Dave Frightens Me <deepfreudmoors@eITmISaACTUALLYiREAL!l.nu> wrote:
... the grammar in
French and English is completely different. Even the basic word order
changes.
I'm too tired to go into it in any detail, but I don't agree. There
are many similarities between sentence forms in French and English.
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There are. Both languages ahve become psoitonal rather than
declined. but there are few alternatives for general structure,
and it doesn't mean that English inherited the structure from
French.
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I don't know enough about the history of the languages to have any
opinion about whether one language shaped the other.
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We can certainly see English shaping French in the modern world.
************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) *************
* Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow *
* My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps * |
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| Posted:
Sat Aug 19, 2006 11:43 pm
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"Keith Willshaw" <keithnospam@kwillshaw.demon.co.uk> wrote
in news:ec70q8$320$1$8300dec7@news.demon.co.uk:
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FWIW, the basic word order does not change between French and English.
Its worth nothing
or in German
es ist wert nichts
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Actually "es ist nichts wert", even though I agree with your general
point, you just picket a bad example :)
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Oh lookie same word order
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Regards
--
On the fifth day, God invented music
http://www.wschwanke.de/ usenet_20031215 (AT) wschwanke (DOT) de |
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| Posted:
Sat Aug 19, 2006 11:47 pm
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Mxsmanic <mxsmanic@gmail.com> wrote in
news:j2g9e2p9i90icgq7fnqe5e5sggv5cfoosp@4ax.com:
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The Reid writes:
its primarly a germanic language ...
It was,
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Completely unscientific statement. A language does not change its
linguistic kinship over time. Asserting it does reveals that you don't
understand the concept of linguistic families.
--
On the fifth day, God invented music
http://www.wschwanke.de/ usenet_20031215 (AT) wschwanke (DOT) de |
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| Posted:
Sat Aug 19, 2006 11:49 pm
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On Sat, 19 Aug 2006 13:59:07 +0200, Mxsmanic <mxsmanic@gmail.com>
wrote:
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Keith W writes:
None of which has anything to do with GRAMMAR
But it has everything to do with vocabularly, which was the first
thing mentioned in the sentence.
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But this all sstarted with your claim that English got its
grammar from French.
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FWIW, the basic word order does not change between French and English.
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There are only a few basic ways to order sentences. One is to
have not order, to have a heavily declined languageg where word
order doesn't matter, and meaning is derived from the assorted
case endings.
The other main word order is positional. Once case endings have
been dropped almost completely, as in English, or dropped almsot
completely in the pronunciation, but not necessarily the
orthography, as with French, meaning is derived frowm word
position in the sentence.for the most part, this generally
results in an order like subject-predicate.
Because this is a consequence of the dropping of case endings, it
is not a given that the English usage of this model followed from
French. Of course, although German is heavily declined, it also
generally follows the subject-predicate word order, with certain
exceptions usually found amusing by speakers of other languages,
such as Mark Twain. And results in some amusing things like the
Yiddish based song "Throw Mother from the Train a Kiss". And
we've all heard gags about translators falling asleep waiting for
a German speaker to get to the verb
Because it is heavily declined, the word play involved int the
old say that "Dog bites man isn't news, man bites dog is news"
wouldn't make a hwhole lot of sense in Latin, where the word
order could be kept while teh case endings change.
************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) *************
* Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow *
* My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps * |
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| Posted:
Sat Aug 19, 2006 11:49 pm
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Mxsmanic <mxsmanic@gmail.com> wrote in
news:o16ce21bc7m6ep3kcs1rujup3p7e81svkf@4ax.com:
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What we inherited from French we kept
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English inherited nothing from French, because it's not descended from
it. English _borrowed_ loanwords from French, and massively at that.
Another concept applied wrongly.
--
On the fifth day, God invented music
http://www.wschwanke.de/ usenet_20031215 (AT) wschwanke (DOT) de |
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| Posted:
Sat Aug 19, 2006 11:50 pm
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On Sat, 19 Aug 2006 08:06:57 -0500, barney2@cix.compulink.co.uk
wrote:
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In article <o81ee2lh34iuo2pl67gc4g5ftf1kfredtr@4ax.com>, me@privacy.net
(Martin) wrote:
*From:* Martin <me@privacy.net
*Date:* Sat, 19 Aug 2006 14:40:36 +0200
On Sat, 19 Aug 2006 13:59:07 +0200, Mxsmanic <mxsmanic@gmail.com
wrote:
Keith W writes:
None of which has anything to do with GRAMMAR
But it has everything to do with vocabularly, which was the first
thing mentioned in the sentence.
FWIW, the basic word order does not change between French and English.
Yeah right. Where are descriptive adjectives positioned in French.
Examples
une table ronde - round table
un livre noir - black book
du thé sucré - sweet tea
une femme américaine - American woman
une église catholique - Catholic church
une famille bourgeoise - middle-class family
une histoire intéressante - interesting story
un débat passionné - lively debate
It does happen in English to a limited extent, of course (the body
politic, the house beautiful, the light fantastic), but much less than in
French.
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The attorney general
Courth martial
************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) *************
* Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow *
* My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps * |
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| Posted:
Sat Aug 19, 2006 11:52 pm
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On Sat, 19 Aug 2006 17:32:42 +0200, Mxsmanic <mxsmanic@gmail.com>
wrote:
| Quote: |
Martin writes:
Yeah right. Where are descriptive adjectives positioned in French.
Basic word order is SVO in both languages:
I see the car = Je vois la voiture.
The sun is shining = Le soleil brille.
I've dialed the number = J'ai composé le numéro.
Examples
une table ronde - round table
un livre noir - black book
du thé sucré - sweet tea
une femme américaine - American woman
une église catholique - Catholic church
une famille bourgeoise - middle-class family
une histoire intéressante - interesting story
un débat passionné - lively debate
une belle femme = a beautiful woman
un beau jour = a beautiful day
une grande erreur = a big mistake
un petit espoir = a small hope
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But do note that the argument has devolved to desperately citing
what are, for the most part, exceptions in either language.
************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) *************
* Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow *
* My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps * |
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| Posted:
Sat Aug 19, 2006 11:58 pm
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Mxsmanic <mxsmanic@gmail.com> wrote in
news:g09de256g8h8obr1ehe1nd0kmvp9b6l9kr@4ax.com:
| Quote: |
Hatunen writes:
I would be interested in several examples of grammar English
inherited from French.
You've just provided one. It also includes several examples of
vocabulary inherited from French.
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English has exactly 2 (two) grammatical features borrowed from French.
I'll give a free ringtone to anyone who can name them. Other features
which may seem similar between the two language's grammars are due to
convergent development, but not borrowing (much less inheritance as
claimed earlier). Other than those two features the grammar of English
can exclusively be traced back to Germanic traits, even though the
similarities to its modern cousins aren't always obvious for
superficial obvservers because English changed at a much faster pace.
| Quote: |
Prior to the Middle English that arose after the Norman Conquest, Old
English was a Germanic language that is unrecognizable today.
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English still is a Germanic language. A language's linguistic
classification doesn't change. Anyone who claims otherwhise does not
understand the concept of linguistic families.
| Quote: |
Try
reading _Beowulf_ for an example of what it used to look like.
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Try reading anything from any language 1500 years back.
Say Mxsmanic, I can tell you know nothing about linguistics, but do you
speak any Germanic language other than English?
Regards
--
On the fifth day, God invented music
http://www.wschwanke.de/ usenet_20031215 (AT) wschwanke (DOT) de |
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| Posted:
Sun Aug 20, 2006 12:02 am
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Hatunen <hatunen@cox.net> wrote in
news:i6tbe2d59vdltcfn0hg60dbkbnhp1fv72p@ 4ax.com:
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Question: Are words retained from the Normans truly words from
French?
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As opposed to what? The Normans spoke a Romance language that is
usually classified as a regional variety of early French. What else
would it be?
Regards
--
On the fifth day, God invented music
http://www.wschwanke.de/ usenet_20031215 (AT) wschwanke (DOT) de |
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| Posted:
Sun Aug 20, 2006 12:05 am
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Hatunen <hatunen@cox.net> wrote in
news:9otbe2dsvib0njsdbu6bghq4du0ks4kn06@4ax.com:
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Nonsense. English grammar doesn't come from French.
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English inherited nothing from French, but borrowed. Words mostly, but
a few tiny grammatical features too.
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What grammar
we inherited from Norman French (and Germanic) we shed long ago.
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"Shedding grammar" doesn't happen. English has almost all its grammar
from Proto Germanic. What we have today is the result of many many
mutations over time, but ultimately derived from a root we call
Germanic. There were few grammatical features from French to begin
with, but those that were adopted at the time are still there.
Regards
--
On the fifth day, God invented music
http://www.wschwanke.de/ usenet_20031215 (AT) wschwanke (DOT) de |
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| Posted:
Sun Aug 20, 2006 12:08 am
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Padraig Breathnach <padraigb@MUNGEDiol.ie> wrote in
news:cahce2128d5hftkrem5kp7ruq72usl05ua@4ax.com:
| Quote: |
I'm too tired to go into it in any detail, but I don't agree. There
are many similarities between sentence forms in French and English.
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Convergent development in most cases. I'll give away the two
grammatical features English borrowed from French next week. :)
| Quote: |
I don't know enough about the history of the languages to have any
opinion about whether one language shaped the other.
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French shaped English massively, but hardly in grammar, only in
vocabulary. Borrowing of grammatical features is rare among languages.
Regards
--
On the fifth day, God invented music
http://www.wschwanke.de/ usenet_20031215 (AT) wschwanke (DOT) de |
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| Posted:
Sun Aug 20, 2006 12:46 am
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Hatunen <hatunen@cox.net> wrote in
news:3lmee2prfdr67g5l9khf0o6un3ravg5a68@4ax.com:
| Quote: |
Yiddish based song "Throw Mother from the Train a Kiss".
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Do you have the lyrics please? Bei mir bist du shayn ...
--
On the fifth day, God invented music
http://www.wschwanke.de/ usenet_20031215 (AT) wschwanke (DOT) de |
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| Posted:
Sun Aug 20, 2006 2:54 am
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On Sat, 19 Aug 2006 21:02:10 +0200, Wolfgang Schwanke
<see@sig.nature> wrote:
| Quote: |
Hatunen <hatunen@cox.net> wrote in
news:i6tbe2d59vdltcfn0hg60dbkbnhp1fv72p@ 4ax.com:
Question: Are words retained from the Normans truly words from
French?
As opposed to what? The Normans spoke a Romance language that is
usually classified as a regional variety of early French. What else
would it be?
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That's what I'm asking. But you have shed no light on it.
But regional varieties are not always considered the same
language.
************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) *************
* Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow *
* My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps * |
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